In Defense of Forums

Guest post by Alexander “SpanishSpy” Wallace.

There has been much talk of how the future of the alternate history community on the Internet is gravitating towards formats that are distinct from the traditional forum format. Facebook groups are the new format that many like to point to as the future of the community. I do believe, however, that forums provide a key asset that other such formats, such as Facebook groups or subreddits, simply do not: permanence.

Boards such as AlternateHistory.com or others such as Althistoria, Otherhistory, or Othertimelines bump their threads up to the front of each individual forum when they are commented upon; other formats have no such mechanisms. This is what allows longer works to be able to be sustained, and what allows titans of the genre and the community to thrive. Years of effort can be put into these great works; after all they gave us AlternateHistory.com’s greatest.

You just can’t do the same thing on Facebook or Reddit; threads are vapid, passing things that are quickly cast away in the course of a few days to a few hours. They lack the ability to rocket up to the front page of a forum once new activity has been logged. Reddit technically can but its algorithm makes that a truly titanic effort. Facebook isn’t much better and I am not familiar enough with Tumblr to judge.

In his previous post, "Is the Alternate History Community Over-Centralized?" this site’s esteemed owner Matt Mitrovich speculated that the new generation alternate historians will prefer social media to discussion forums. I can understand this sentiment, but I feel that the two serve different niches, and as such will allow the the propagation of different forms of interaction.

The names of the two genres reveal the distinct differentiation of function. Social media is about people and making connections over shared interests, such as alternate history in our case. Discussion forums, on the other hand, are focused around ideas, around discussion of ideas and not about people. Those involved in the discussion are of secondary importance to the actual ideas. An alternate world is nothing more than a series of ideas presented together in conversation with one another and as such forums provide a natural place for such timelines.

There is another key advantage of forums: they are centralized. The transient nature of social media is not conducive to bringing talent together in a form that can be easily appreciated. The permanence of forums and the ease of discussion as described above are what attracts the good writers who write the masterworks. With masterworks in one place, more people will come and will discuss these bundles of ideas.

Social media, on the other hand, is primary a means of association and those who join said groups are primarily looking for the communal aspect. This is not to say that there is no community on forums or discussion of ideas on social media, far from it. The way to attract people, however, is quite different. Social media emphasizes community, while forums emphasize the content generated and the ideas discussed. They are two different purposes.

Social media and forums are each tailored to their very specific role in the broader community, and each attract people looking for something different. Forums provide a permanence and a format that social media cannot match; as such, forums are going nowhere.

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Alexander "SpanishSpy" Wallace is the author of several works of alternate history on alternatehistory.com and the alternate history wikia, including the 2014 Turtledove Award Winner for Best New Speculative, The Rise of the Tri-State World Order: A Timeline of Orwell's 1984, Emancipation and Exodus, and Scorpions in a Bottle, as well as other works. 

Interview: Ian Montgomerie

I present my interview with Ian Montgomerie, founder and administrator of AlternateHistory.com:

Who is Ian Montgomerie?

Just some guy.  I don't bare it all on the internet.

What got you interested in alternate history?

I've been interested in history and science fiction since I was a little kid.  When in college I happened to find the Usenet newsgroup soc.history.what-if, and discovered that speculating about history with other people was pretty damn interesting.  It's pretty rare to find people having internet arguments that involve a lot of creativity, reasoning, and actual learning.

Why do you think fans in general like alternate history?

I actually don't think of the people on my web site as "fans".  Being a fan of something usually refers to cheering on somebody else.  Sports fans watch sports but don't necessarily play them, Star Wars fans watch Star Wars but don't make movies, and so on.  The alternate history community on the web is almost entirely about people creating their own stuff, discussing it, and debating it.  There's very little time devoted to talking about professionally published alternate history.

It's more like a cross between folk art and internet debate.

What do you believe motivates someone to alter history?

I think there are a lot of different motivations for AH, but it's basically it's a way to be creative but also have an analytical challenge.  It's creative, but it doesn't require artistic talent (writing/painting/etc.), and it does require a lot of reading and clear thinking.  So it depends on what you enjoy.

Why did you start AlternateHistory.com?

It was almost unintentional.  Back when people could first buy internet domain names, I realized that speculators were going to buy up all the good ones for profit, so I decided to grab alternatehistory.com on general principle.  I asked the people of soc.history.what-if if they had any suggestions, and someone suggested creating a moderated discussion board.  Usenet was unmoderated and soc.history.what-if was experiencing some severe trolling, so it seemed like a logical idea.

The result was that I downloaded some free forum software and installed it on my own PC so that it ran over my cable modem connection.  A small number of people joined it, and as it slowly grew I did start moderating to keep out the worst trolls.

Can you describe what the early board was like?

The board in the early days was a lot friendlier and also a lot less serious than Usenet.  Most people didn't put nearly as much effort into AH, partly because the audience for each work was a lot smaller. It was more of a casual discussion, coffee house sort of feel.  Like many small communities, we discovered that small groups of people being quirky could have an impact on the culture of the entire board.  A lot of early members were gay, which was a bigger deal ten years ago, so there were a lot of gay jokes.  And there was a religion about giant sheep.

What are some of the differences between how AlternateHistory.com looked at the beginning to how it looks now?

Visually it used to be simple 90s web design - white background with blue links.  There were only a handful of forums, in particular there were no separate chat forums so casual discussion was mixed in with everything else.

Do you find that board members have any shared traits/interests (besides alternate history, of course)?

What interests board members seems to depend a lot on their age.  Older members range from people who are intellectual in general, to hardcore conservatives who like the past better than the present. The younger membership has a big crossover with geek culture (anime and sci-fi fans and so on). The one thing that I've always noticed is what's NOT there - the tech nerds.  People who are highly into computer technology and programming, idolize hackers, love Linux, and so on are a very vocal group across a lot of the internet, but are a tiny minority on alternatehistory.com.  I'm sure part of that is because people who are highly into technology usually don't also spend a lot of time on humanities subjects like history.

In your opinion, what was the most defining moment in the board's history?

I can't think of one, because the board has grown so organically over time.  All the changes I've made have been to deal with that steady growth, so they've been incremental.  Many web sites hit some point when they "make it" and have to deal with explosive growth and unexpected challenges, but we've never had that kind of high profile.

The Fall of Alternia

This post is not about some fantastical kingdom located in-between realities (though that would have been cool).  Alternia was actually an alternate history forum that was not in any way related to AH.com (Gasp!).  I know it is hard to believe, but AH.com was not always the behemoth of relatively polite discussion it is today.  At one point it had challengers for the crown of largest and most popular alternate history discussion group on the Internet, and Alternia was one of them.

Now AH.com does have their own story on the history of their unknown rival, but it is an incredibly bias and unfair history of the defunct community.  As someone who was there during the collapse, I want to provide a different and friendlier perspective on this failed forum.  While it may not be entirely balanced, perhaps after you have read my version of the events along with AH.com's version, you may leave with a better opinion of Alternia. Admittedly the entire story of Alternia is not known to me, however, I will do the best that I can to give you as detailed of history as possible. 

There were three versions of Alternia: Alternia 1.0 (which was founded by TheAdmin), Alternia 2.0, (a.k.a. Free Alternia) and the final good version Alternia 3.0, which is also the one I had the most experience with.  Believe it or not, Alternia was not a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" as some would lead you to believe.  That label was gained after a troll by the name Hashemite somehow managed to gain a position of importance in one of the earlier versions of Alternia.  He was later banned from both AH.com and Alternia.  Exactly where he is now is unknown.

Alternia 3.0, whose hosting was provided by administrator Hey, was discovered by myself in 2007.  I arrived after most of the members of OtherTimelines.com (which Korsgaard will speak of in more detail in a future post) merged with Alternia in April 2007.   I discovered quickly that Alternia had some top quality posters.  Among them were AH.com veteran Wendell, J. T. Tate, map maker Lord Sander and Changing the Times author Chris Oakley.  Alternians were generally welcoming and provided constructive criticism of my own work.  It was in this environment that I first introduced one of my more humorous creations: Sgt. Mitro.  Sgt. Mitro was a stereotypical Space Marine who gave advice on a variety subjects, though his advice always ended with him suggesting that the advice seeker should join the Space Marines where they would likely end up either killed or horribly maimed.

During my tenure there was a sense of growth and optimism in the air.  Alternia had absorbed several smaller forums and with OTL.com going defunct and being absorbed by Alternia, it was now the second largest alternate history forum on the Internet.  For many there was nowhere Alternia could go but up and some believed that it was entirely possible for Alternia to one day surpass AH.com.  Alternia continued to grow after the controversial banning of S. M. Stirling.  AH.commers such as the famous map maker Diamond and Matt left to join Alternia in protest over the ban.  Though Stirling did make one post on Alternia, he never became an active member as some claim.  Nevertheless, the controversy over at AH.com furthered the drive of many Alternians to make their forum the most important alternate history forum on the web.

The problem was that many Alternians began to take their rivalry with AH.com too seriously.  Alternia could be considered more right-wing in their politics then the more left-wing AH.com.  It was these political differences that caused many Alternians to leave AH.com, but they took their issues with the larger forum personally.  Anti-AH.com posts were very prevalent, and for a time I believed them.  Worse, as time went by, people cared more about arguing politics, and later forum politics, then actually discussing alternate history.  When an alternate history forum stops discussing alternate history, you know you are in trouble.

Alternia began to collapse shortly after I was chosen to be a moderator (trust me, neither event had anything to do with each other).  Apparently there were issues between the forum management and TheAdmin.  Though he was the original founder of Alternia, TheAdmin was not the highest ranking admin since he was no longer hosting the forum.  Hey, nevertheless, gave him admin abilities out of respect for his seniority.  Problems, however, arose between TheAdmin and other administrators who felt that he was somehow holding Alternia back. 

What exactly TheAdmin was doing to stunt the growth of Alternia I never discovered because events began to spiral out of control from that point onward.  Somehow a cabal of admins managed to convince Hey to remove TheAdmin's administrator abilities.  TheAdmin responded with an angry post on the forum attacking the current Alternia leadership, which got him banned.  The entire community erupted over this leading to more bans and people leaving the site voluntarily.  All of this happened during a weekend I was in Wisconsin with my girlfriend (and later wife) enjoying my real life, unaware that my virtual life was in upheaval.

As it looked like the site was about to spiral out of control, Hey was convinced by a group of moderators to reinstall TheAdmin's privileges and ban the admin involved in the banning of TheAdmin.  That, however, did not fix anything.  The banning of TheAdmin opened a can of worms that tore Alternia apart.  Issues with past decisions by Hey and the other admins were dug up and fought over.  The most contentious issue was treating the members of OTL.com as a special minority by allowing them a unique color scheme for their user names and always making sure one of their members was in a position of authority.  Others complained about how the forum was being administered and several people began proposing "constitutions", as if Alternia was a virtual state that needed to be governed.  Hey, meanwhile, showed poor leadership by doing nothing to calm the growing discord among the community.  In fact his participation on the forum dropped considerably.

A moderator by the name of Albus Dumbledore was the most vocal agitator during the chaotic collapse of Alternia.  He was a major proponent of getting rid of the special status of OTLers, among other changes he wanted to make to the forum.  He because very unpopular with members with his constant demands for change.  Many accused him of being motivated solely for the sake of gaining more power in the forum, so Dumbledore resigned as moderator, but kept pushing his "reforms".  I myself because so disgusted with arguing with him, which took away actual discussion of alternate history, that I resigned my post as moderator and began limiting my time at Alternia.  Dumbledore's one positive contribution during this chaotic period was his crusade to end the tension between Alternia and AH.com.  Sadly this goal became moot after the forum finally collapsed.

Though there were many factors that caused the collapse of Alternia, in my most humble opinion I feel they were made worse by Dumbledore's action.  Perhaps he had the best intentions, but he caused fights over things that were better left ignored.  When Dumbledore stopped posting for a couple of weeks to go on vacation, things began to return to normal.  No one was writing posts on forum government and interest in alternate history increased.  When Dumbledore returned, however, things became worse.  Dumbledore's renewed calls for reforms reignited old arguments and the forum collapsed as users left to form successor forums.

The largest and most successful was Different Worlds (later renamed Other Timelines), which was formed from among the OTLers.  They ignored forum government issues and instead focused on alternate history again.  Alternians like Hey and Dumbledore were given preemptive bans, yet Dumbledore's ban was eventually overturned.  When a general science fiction forum created by TheAdmin was absorbed by Different Worlds, it was discovered that a poster by the name of Mithrandir was actually Dumbledore.  Dumbledore was allowed to stay, however, since he had behaved himself while on the other forum and was unwilling to start anymore fights over forum governance.

What lessons can we learn from Alternia's legacy?  First, avoid becoming to enamored with off-topic discussions on politics and religions.  If you are not careful they can spiral out of control and destroy your alternate history forum.  Better that communities adopt a "No Cross, No Crown" policy and tell their users to seek debate on those topics elsewhere.  Certainly the Internet has no shortage of such places so there really is no reason to sponsor them at your alternate history forum.

Second, the small size of the genre makes it very difficult to challenge an already entrenched institutions like AH.com, the AH wiki, Changing the Times and other alternate history communities.  Unless your product is unique enough, it is unlikely to survive competition with another community that already exists.  Better to be on the ground floor of bringing alternate history to a new medium (does Google Plus have an alternate history group yet?) then challenge something that already exists.

Believe it or not Alternia does still exist!  Over at Zeta Boards you can find the little known fourth version of Alternia.  Old Alternia veterans like Straha post there, but sadly nothing new has been added since July.  Perhaps Alternia truly is defunct, which is likely for the best.  I rather remember Alternia as it was, a welcoming community of alternate historians always willing to listen to a new idea.

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Mitro is founder, editor and contributor of Alternate History Weekly Update.  When he is not busy writing about his passion for alternate history, he spends his time working as a licensed attorney in the state of Illinois and dreams of being a published author himself one day.